We had the opportunity to have Ted Haggard (at left) in our building today, hosted by David Nelson of Great Lakes Church.
Ted was the pastor of a very large church in Colorado Springs - and then three years ago - he found himself embroiled in a controversy involving accusations regarding issues of morality. Since that time, Ted has been on a journey of confession, accountability, counseling, healing and restoration. He spoke with us about ministry and the heart of the church in a question-answer forum.
I found the conversation stimulating, challenging and encouraging. Much of what he spoke about is what I want for KFA. I want us to be a place that is grace-filled, accepting people in whatever condition they are, reaching out with the love of Christ to people who are failures, hurting, ashamed, confused, searching - and yes, outright sinful.
That's really you and me, isn't it? ALL HAVE SINNED ... ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT ... IT'S ONLY BY GOD'S GRACE that any of us are still standing on two feet.
Ted talked about our fondness for saying, "We hate the sin, but love the sinner," and how that didn't wash for him because the sin is part of the sinner. The sinner can't separate himself from the sin. If we pound on a homosexual that he/she is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong in his/her sin, that person has a difficult time separating those words from "I am bad, I am bad, I am bad, I am bad," and that we have to find another way - the way of love - to help them come to a place of forgiveness thru the power of the Holy Spirit, not via our hammering them toward confession. And I agree. Good stuff.
Ted mentioned that when his fiasco broke in the news media, his huge church in Colorado Springs stepped up to deal with the situation in front of the congregation. Al Jazeera, the leading television station to the Muslim world, had their truck parked in the church parking lot prepared to send the entire 90 minute service broadcast to the watching Muslim world. What an opportunity to share the Gospel to nearly a billion Muslims ... an opportunity not had before or since, by the way. Instead, what the Muslim world heard all over the Middle East was American Christian church leaders saying, "We have purged the sin ... we have removed the sinner ... pound, pound, pound ... we had a wrong-doer in our midst and now he is gone ... he has disappeared ... hammer, hammer, hammer ... we are safe now ... etc. etc. etc."
Rather than hearing about God's grace and love, we responded the same way the Muslim world would have responded - with judgment and finality. Opportunity lost.
There was so much I was inspired by today. There were also some things I didn't completely understand - some things I have questions about - some things I wasn't on the same page with. It wasn't all 'roses' for me during today's conversation, but I'm going to keep those things to myself and keep asking God about them.
And be blessed.
18 comments:
Very interesting.
I must agree that we tend to pound 'sinners' to a pulp and then wonder why don't want anything to do with the Jesus who came that we would have a more abundant life, free from the compulsion to sin.
Most 'sinners' know the scriptures that apply to them in some form. We have to take a hard look at ourselves and not only ask God to clean us up (including that nice new turbon) but to help us let go of the worst two sins (that give rise to all the others): Ingratitude & Pride.
We need to quit being PROUD of our country, our community, our family's, our church, our ???? and start being GRATEFUL for HIS BLESSINGS and HUMBLED that HE has GIVEN them to us.
God RESISTS the PROUD...so to tag on to what you were saying PK:
How can GOD CHANGE US so that HE no longer has to RESIST US, so that we can be a BLESSING to HIS HEART?
Hugzzz in Christ.
pamers
The church in the US has much to worry about PK. Not only is there not enough grace throughout the ranks...there's not enough holiness. Some churches go so far out in the "grace" business they don't look any different than the world. We are the bride of Christ, not the attendees of the bachelor party. I am in anguish over the state of the church. I weep during services for friends I once knew on fire for the Lord, now posting on Facebook how they can't wait to get home for a drink. I guess when their pastor jokes about singing 99 bottles of beer on the wall and wonders who else has that song now stuck in their heads it's a wonder they aren't all drinking after work. We need to love as God loves, live as God commands out of love for Him and grow into that beautiful bride of Christ He coming for.
I am encouraged by what you say about not understanding some things & not being on the same page with some things but that you are keeping those things to yourself and praying about them.
Great comments, friends. Allow me to bounce back on a couple of the thoughts.
The extremes go both ways. Some believers hide behind a facade of holiness and become so irrelevant to a desperately needy world that their friends couldn't hope to measure up if they tried. So they don't try.
Those believers can't imagine contextualizing the Gospel to their culture and end up walking around with their lovely holiness that turns way more people off to the Gospel than grace ever did. They think everything the world does is evil, when it is not.
I agree that we need to be holy - Christ is our example - but Jesus (and Paul) used the world and its beliefs/customs/illustrations wisely to His (their) advantage in order to reach those far from God. It was only the 'holy' Pharisees that His anger rose up against.
I believe there is so much wonderful happening for the Kingdom today. It depends on where you look. So many people are coming to Christ, getting healed, growing in the faith, giving up things that weigh them down. I certainly see some alarming things, but I also am witnessing amazing and miraculous things happening in people's lives.
I'm glad we're on this journey together, friends. Be blessed.
dm:
THAT'S the part you're encouraged by????? :)
PK..there is so much I don't know abou the details of what happened. Since I have been saved, I haven't kept up with the news the way I used to. I HAVE been tremendously impressed with Gayle, though. SHE is wonderful.
There is one comment I will make...I truly do understand that some people have homosexual attractions. My one question is this: Why can't they remain celibate? I am heterosexual and I have been celibate since 2003, because I am not married. I am a normal person in those ways, but I have made a vow. The OTHER thing I will say is I struggle with other areas as a Christian and those things are no less serious than Ted's, so I am not minimizing my own sins. I just think that reserving sex for marriage is a beautiful thing and it is what God asks of us...heterosexual or homosexual.
Those are all amazing points. Those are all teachings we here week after week. Forgive the sinner, we're all sinners, there's hope for the sinner, God never turns away from you, Grace, and so on and so on. My question comes from being on the other side, the one who the sin was commited against. Where is the hope for that person. Where is the hope for the wife whose husband has slept with other women? Where is the hope for the mother who has to explain to her children why daddy isn't around? "We have a choice?" Much easier said then done when you have not lived and walked those shoes. Jesus choose the love/forgive method, of course He did, He was Jesus. We are not Christ, we are human, and we hurt, and we have memories, and we have pain, and we have triggers, and some of us have had our lives turned upside down. Praise Jesus for the power and love of grace and forgiveness, for He died on the cross for us all. But I feel there is no balance is lifting up those who sinned and those who were sinned against, especially in the arena of adultery.
ANON:
I think it's the same for those who have been hurt by others. I was hurt and abandoned and victimized by my own father, but God's grace covers that, too.
The ones who sinned need Jesus just as much as the ones sinned against. The ground is level at the foot of the cross.
Hope and grace are found equally for all parties involved. Whoever reaches out to Christ finds His amazing arms waiting and open.
Nicely said Anonymous at 10:07 pm.
My husband has had multiple affairs over the years. He has continued to work hard in his recovery for the past couple of years and I have witnessed a true heart change. It is still hard to trust him at times and I struggle with the possibility of being torn apart another day in the future.
At times I have wanted to SCREAM at the top of my lungs while sitting in church hearing about fogive, forgive, forgive, grace, grace, grace. Not that I don't believe in what the Bible teaches, but I like how you said, much easier said then done.
I felt as if there was NO hope for me, NO understanding of my pain, NO compassion for my life, NO resources available. This is a problem just not out in the world, it's right in the middle of our churches, but shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I appreciate and no longer feel as if I am standing alone. Thank you Anonymous at 10:07 pm, and thank you PK for posting that comment.
I see the term "holiness" bounced around, as if it were centered totally on sin, or the absence there of, within mortal beings....Could the core of the problem be in thta we focus on this "holiness", rather than on His Holiness..a lack of reverence and awe for the Presence of The Father is reflected in the ejpty altars BEFORE as well as AFTER we have deemed a service to be done...the chatter during worship, or the time o The Word brought forth by pastor, reflects that people are focused on "fellowship" and horizontal communication, rather than "vertical" awareness...if the primary priority of our lives truly is a deep desire for The Presence of TGhe Ftaher..there would be no need ot discuss forgiveness...it woul dbe an automatic response, rather than a learned behavior...I have had students who have been guilty of robbery, rape, and even murder....I never had to discuss forgiveness with them...only let my love for Him reflect my heart's desire to see them in The Kingdom...BE STILL...and KNOW He is God...then the debate over forgiveness seems so trivial....
ANON at 10:21:
Our biggest problem is not what happens in the hour on Sunday. It IS the before and after where the challenge lies. God calls us to be ON MISSION with Him and IN HIS PRESENCE every minute of every day. We focus too much of our 'religious and spiritual agenda' on the hour on Sunday.
We should be so filled up with Jesus that the time together on Sunday is not one speck about us. It's a time to come together and serve God by using our gifts and giving Him attention, not soak.
Our BE STILL AND KNOW needs to happen all during the week - in small groups - in our private prayer closets. When we put inordinate stress on the one hour we're together, that's how spaces become holy. That promotes compartmentalization. When we think God resides in a room, then we'll never be caught telling a joke in that room that we don't find a problem telling in the parking lot -- things like that. YOU are the temple. I continually resist applying holiness to rooms rather than individuals "ON MISSION' for God.
Every Sunday we meet for that hour - and then leave to enter the place Jesus needs us most - we are saying, "THE CHURCH IS NOW LEAVING THE BUILDING." Go get em.
For the most part, I would agree with what you say...the Sunday examples were merely an example of observable behaviors which reflect the inner focus. If we we cannot focus on His Presence for an hour...in His House of Prayer...How is it that one could expect the behavioral responses you speak of for 24/7? "Be Still" was a command that does not reflect "business" but rather the exact opposite. Ministry, void of Presence, is nothing but our own futal attempts at "playing church"....Without spending time with a focus purely on Him, with absolutely NO desire but to be in His Presence, we cannot truly minister to others...Pr Tommy Barnett spends an hour alone, on prayer mountain, every AM...from that time of stillness before His God come the fruits of over 200 ministries within his church and at least 200 Dream Centers throughout the nation. His primary focus is to be still before God..THEN he ministers....It is said that the majority of our nation's pastors spend 7 minutes a day alone in prayer...This trickles down to the congregations spending even less time than that...If Jesus were to enter into any of our churches...how many people would be familiar enough with His Presence to recognize Him immediately? How many would be like those who walked with Him for miles, and failed to recognize Him until He broke the bread?...Take time to BE STILLL with no activity but to be in His Presence...and you will command a lightening storm to stop... it will do so immediately..just to give you 4 hours of stillness with Him atop a mountain...you will stand there and gaze at the horizons and see the storm all around while you walk on dry land...BEEN THERE DONE THAT..not by being busy...but by being STILL!
ANON at 7:51 p.m.
I love your challenges. You make some wonderful points. I think you're right on with so much of it. Thanks for sharing.
I might have reversed the one point though. "If we cannot focus on His Presence in His House of Prayer...How is it that one could expect the behavioral responses you speak of for 24/7?"
I might have said: "Since we spend only ONE HOUR on the weekend, and 167 hours elsewhere in worship, "IF we cannot focus on His presence sometime during the 167 hours in His House of Prayer (which today is WHEREVER you are, since YOU are the temple), how is that one could expect that behavioral response on the HOUR ON SUNDAY?"
Just food for thought, since you are making me think as well. WAY TO GO!
What is the reason to gather for that "Sunday Hour"? If fellowship is the priority, where is this found in The Word? If Worship, Prayer, and growing from the teaching of The Word are to be the priority, then there would be a far different set of observable behaviors. When David gathered with those who had traveled with the Ark...and they were in ONE ACCORD, was that for fellowship, or was it to praise and worship? If the "one accord" response by God is the presence of The Glory Cloud...why is it that this has not occurred in our services throughout America? If the purpose is to participate in the corperate Anointing, then should we not expect signs wonders and miracles, during these Biblically requested gatherings, on a regular basis? My point is that we CANNOT be a temple of any sort if we do not take the time to BE STILL...If we take over the authority of "OUR WALK" with Him, we omit the Power that comes from His athority...RIGHTEOUSNESS...."The Authority of Holiness". I do not negate the need to minister to others..but NOT without the solitude of the garden... He asked them to stay an hour...but the "red lettering" only takes 5 minutes to speak out...He spent the majority of the time STILL before His Father....THEN He set out for the greatest ministry ever...The Cross...
ANON at 7:51:
I love your points, as well. Sometimes, I feel that some people there are "playing church", as well. PK and I have been round and round about this...lol. But, sorry, I still think God's house is holy. I do not, in any way shape or form, think we should compartmentalize the rest of our lives...I get that, but Sunday is my favorite day of the week. I get to listen to God's word in God's house. I love it, but I also live it during the week, too. You ar far more eloquent than I, but it is so nice to hear you say it so well. :)
I am not sure that anyone is still reading this particular subject, but I wanted to share something that has made a huge impact in my life. I am the one who mentioned celibacy when one is not married.
Since 1997 I have had one man who I have respected and admired all throughout. Some of you may know of him...ex-LA Laker AC Green. As a devout Christian, he has always encouraged abstinance before marriage and he lived it.
The thing is, based on his example and the things he said, I came to see that my emotions, love and sexuality are precious gifts and that I can live my life with dignity. I can love who I see in the mirror. If I ever remarry and share that gift with a man, it will be one who treats me that way.
His other advice is that even if I have had sex without marriage, one can have a "halftime" in their lives and the whole second half can be so different. It's not too late.
It's been years since I have been in a relationship, because I won't settle for the first man who shoots me a smile across the room. I look far more at someone's character. If I never remarry, I will still be okay. I have Jesus as my bridegroom...I am not alone.
My whole reason for writing this is that we are discussing questions of morality. We are beautiful and the gift of marriage is well worth waiting for. Just look for a spouse who exhibits love, integrity, values and is committed to you as the love of his life.
Treat yourself as the special person that you are and don't settle for less. Jesus will be with you...even if you feel lonely for companionship.
ANON at 8:10 p.m.
LOL. WELL OF COURSE some people are playing church. You were too at one time. I'm glad we didn't give up on you when you were in that condition. Everyone is in process, growing and being pruned and challenged. You haven't always felt about the God and the Gospel the way you feel today.
WAY TO GO. GOOD THOUGHTS.
Try Acts 2:42-47.
But bear in mind that these New Testament groups of people didn't meet in large buildings like we do today. This all took place in smaller group, home-style settings. The Sunday morning hour is a relatively new development the way it appears today. I still love it, love it, love it - but it's not exactly what Jesus had in mind, most likely.
I think my point about BE STILL AND KNOW - and the whole GARDEN OF SOLITUDE - is that, by definition, those things are not conducive when you're shoulder to shoulder with 1,000 other people. Just seems to me that in your own home with a few friends is where the BE STILL AND KNOW should be happening.
It's all good. Be blessed.
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