I've been in Seattle all week long sitting in on some training with Leadership Development Resources with Dr. Mel Ming.
The whole training is about having a cohesive mission - purposes - values - direction - and how ministry flows out of those things. So much of it is about remembering there is a lost world out there who needs Jesus. I love that - and KFA (and whoever else is reading) - we can never forget what our organizational mission and our personal mission on the earth is all about. It's the same mission that Jesus had: To seek and save the lost. Essentially, for us at KFA: Making it easy (by our own lives for others) to find and experience God.
So as I'm sitting here listening - taking tons of notes - trying to absorb everything I'm going to teach to other Wisconsin Ministry Network churches - and as I recount a conversation I had with a family member recently --- I begin to wonder how we would handle certain things as believers in Jesus Christ.
Let me go way out on a ledge with this scenario: You're making friends with a neighbor across the backyard fence. You've been talking with him for over a year now. You've been to each others' homes for dinner - you've played rounds of golf together. He's a nice guy. You're making progress; you can sense it. You're praying for continued and new open doors in his life and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you into future conversations and actions.
Along the way you find out he is gay. He has a partner who ultimately ends up moving in with him. At some point you receive an e-mail invitation to their upcoming same-sex ceremony.
'Can we celebrate something we know to be wrong?'
Now - honestly - this isn't my own scenario. I don't have any friends who are in this situation. Maybe that's a bad thing, frankly. I don't know that I'm going to be invited to a same-sex ceremony any time soon. But some of you have been, I know. I bet our kids will be invited to one at some point in their lives. Our grandkids, certainly.
But ... would you attend the ceremony?
OK - before you answer, let me ask you another question.
I'm not baiting you on this - nor am I expressing my own opinion by asking the question - I just want you to think about it. Can we celebrate something we know to be wrong? Don't get hung up on the word 'celebrate,' just insert a more tolerable word if you need to and then answer the question.
Is this the area you would 'take a stand' on? Where do you draw your line? Would you 'celebrate' at the baby shower of a child conceived out of marriage? Is that different?
Would you attend the ceremony?
And be blessed.
18 comments:
My initial gut reaction is that I would attend the ceremony. Afterwards, I may wrestle with my decision but I pray God would help me stick to my decision and my commitment to love people as Jesus did. Right in the midst of their stuff, whatever that may be.
I love this question! Very pertinent. I have been a believer for almost 40 years and having lived in Mpls for most of those I have had a number of gay friends pass through my life. As is my hope with ALL the people that enter my life, I desire to be a reflection of the love of Christ. I have never seen my purpose to be one of judge. Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 6 is directed at those in the church not the world. It is not up to us as believers to judge the world. People in the world act the way they do b/c of their unsaved state. Just like we did before we came to know Christ. Sin is sin. Grace is grace. Would I attend a gay wedding? You bet. We as believers can take the love of Christ everywhere. Wouldn't it be amazing if more believers were less afraid to show love to sinners--no matter what the sin? Think what a difference we would make in the world.
Let me as k you this. If you attend this so called celebration would you act happy for that couple? If so are you? If not would that be the same as lying? Jesus did go to save the lost and went where the sinners went but he preached repentence to them would you?
ANON:
When you are sad or upset around unbelievers in whatever setting they're in where they display language or attitudes that are ungodly, do you tell them so every time on the spot?
When you're angry or sad or upset, do you let everyone know that, or do you walk around with a smile on your face? Do you think that's hypocritical?
Did Jesus convert the people at the Wedding at Cana, or were they already all 100% believers? He turned water into wine there. Should we use that as a proof text that we should substitute water for wine?
I would encourage all to read the book: Love is an Orientation by Andrew Marin and to check out his ministry to the gay population. The Marin Foundation is based in Boys Town CHicago and they have an incredible outreach to men and women. I have been blest by his heart and only wish more Christians who thrive in their self righteousness would experience the heart of Christ.
Some of these comments here are beautiful. Thanks you.
Kevin-thank you for putting this challenge out here for others. I look forward to connecting someday!
Steve
An interesting dilemna which has us asking-what would Jesus do? He dined with sinners and went to where the people are. He had great compassion for the sinner but little patience for the self righteous. How do you show compassion without condoning the behaviour? I don't have an answer but I do know the church hs drawn a line in the sand when it comes to some sins, while ignoring or glossing over others. Too often we ostracize the sinner and expect them to clean up on their own before we are ready to embrace them. Dick Staub wrote a book Too Christian for my pagan friends, too pagan for my Christian friends. I had him speak at the No Regrets conference and he shared the story about being invited to a gay colleagues birthday party where he was the only "straight" one. I know a little of Christians who would have refused to go. Why? I guess I am typing out loud...would like to hear more of your thoughts.
An interesting dilemna which has us asking-what would Jesus do? He dined with sinners and went to where the people are. He had great compassion for the sinner but little patience for the self righteous. How do you show compassion without condoning the behaviour? I don't have an answer but I do know the church hs drawn a line in the sand when it comes to some sins, while ignoring or glossing over others. Too often we ostracize the sinner and expect them to clean up on their own before we are ready to embrace them. Dick Staub wrote a book Too Christian for my pagan friends, too pagan for my Christian friends. I had him speak at the No Regrets conference and he shared the story about being invited to a gay colleagues birthday party where he was the only "straight" one. I know a little of Christians who would have refused to go. Why? I guess I am typing out loud...would like to hear more of your thoughts.
I think for some it would be ok to go, however for others it would not. Proverbs 4:23 says to "Guard our Hearts"....This is a Heart issue, and not everyones heart could handle this. Some old friends will invite me once and awhile to gatherings where there is drunkeness and partying. I always say no, because that is something my heart does not want to be around. Being invited to a Gay Ceremony would be something to take to God and listen for the answer. Again, I think some of us could and for others it would not be good.
DANA: I'm not sure why you're second comment wouldn't publish, but i'm copying and pasting it here. Thanks so very much.
"I think for some it would be ok to go, however for others it would not. Proverbs 4:23 says to "Guard our Hearts"....This is a Heart issue, and not everyones heart could handle this. Some old friends will invite me once and awhile to gatherings where there is drunkeness and partying. I always say no, because that is something my heart does not want to be around. Being invited to a Gay Ceremony would be something to take to God and listen for the answer. Again, I think some of us could and for others it would not be good." ---- DANA
Thanks for all your comments. I'll speak more broadly on this term, rather than give what I think is an actual answer. Reason being: I'm not sure there IS one answer for this, and for those of you who recognized that, I bless you.
I don't know if you've ever thought of the book of Leviticus as being the “LOVE” book of the Bible or not, but it says in Leviticus 19:33-34: "Do not take advantage of foreigners who live among you in your land. Treat them like native-born Israelites, and love them as you love yourself. Remember that you were once foreigners living in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
FOREIGNERS ... people who may be DIFFERENT from you -- different social strata --- different race --- different personalities, lifestyles, behaviors --- TREAT THEM AS NATIVE BORN, this Scripture says.
That’s a powerful statement - treat them as one of your own children - your people - TREAT them that way.
What we have in the church very often is professional courtesy, but relational rudeness. What is that saying about Jesus?
Pr. kevin, The question in your blog is "Can we celebrate something we know to be wrong". and for the sake of clarity, I will asks the question with out using the word "celebrate" can we embrace, agree, love, welcome etc something we know to be wrong? I would not change my love and friendship for this neighbor, but i would not embrace, celebrate, agree, or love what I know to be wrong.
With reference to the scripture in Leviticus, i agree with you to not take advantage of the strangers among us, but i wonder if God would have been happy with Israel if they embraced or celebrated the God's of egypt.
If this was a man that ran away from his wife and kids for a younger woman or any woman would you go to the wedding?
If you were asked to officiate this union would you do it as a professional courtesy, or do you think Jesus would officiate this wedding let a lone attend it?
ANON:
Thanks for your comments. I can tell you're really thinking about it.
I have resisted saying exactly what I might do personally, simply because I don't see the Bible as crystal clear as to what each person should do - so i don't think it's always helpful for me to say how I would respond. I would rather each person work this out with fear and trembling in their own life. I also don't think this answer is going to be necessarily the same for each believer.
I will say this, however - in response to your great thoughts ...
First of all, my credentials as a Minister do not allow me to oversee such a ceremony. I could not - with integrity to God and to my own denomination - officiate as such. However, what i could or would do PROFESSIONALLY may not be the same as what I would do PERSONALLY, within relationship and friendship with people whose lives I am trying to gain entrance into for Christ. And my denomination would not deny me to attend such an event in that scenario.
Lastly, I long to be part of a community of believers who, when faced with such difficult choices (tho this one is fictional) --- would TILT toward unbelievers without apology. Rather than pulling out Scriptures that tell of the justice and judgment of God, we would be quicker to pull out Scriptures that affirm His great grace for us. It's the same grace He had (and has) for you and me, when we were still sinners.
These are extremely messy decisions - but Oh for a group of believers fully in love with Jesus who would understand how much He loves and be compelled to love first and go out on limbs for those far from God in order to reach them - and again, to TILT in their direction when such crossroads come our way.
Be blessed.
The bible is crystal clear about how we should live our lives. Jesus whom we all love very much was not a may be person , thats why we MAKE a choice to follow him or not.
John 14:6 " I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the father except through me"
Matthew 21: 10-13, Jesus takes a stand again and throws people out of the Temple who were selling stuff.
Giving our lives to Christ requires to take a stand and in this case i don't see why we could not do the same. I am not saying that this is what should happen to this man and his partner
I am saying that I choose lift Jesus up because for all the things he has done for me including saving my life which meant loosing his (because he took a stand), thats the least i can do.
I also was wondering would you do something Professionally if you KNEW it to be wrong personally? If i am asked to lie at work because it helps the company that pays me, and not following orders may cause me to loose my job, should i lie since it is a professional decision that has nothing to do with what i believe personally?
This profession your profession and our profession asks us to live out the TRUTH in our personal lives. Unlike many other professions, this particular one seeks to help us with our personal lives which therefore we should not separate the two.
I love you PK.
ANON: Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure who you are, but I appreciate your care and love. I feel it and believe you do. Back at ya. I"m glad you're walking with Christ and serving Him. That's awesome.
I disagree that the Bible is crystal clear on every subject. Some of this is why God asks us to submit these things to Him, listen to His voice and 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.' Beyond that, Romans 14 speaks of 'disputable matters.' That says to me that everything certainly isn't crystal clear.
Again and for instance -- your line on what movies to go see and which ones to avoid may very well be different than the believer next door. Work it out with fear and trembling.
The people you describe in Matthew 21 were supposed to be believers. That's a far different issue in terms of our judgment and discipline and correction of them as opposed to how we treat unbelievers. The Bible IS clear on that one. Paul told us that we shouldn't judge unbelievers -- God would do that type of judging. We were just to love them and leave our judging for those who should know better.
In all of that, I still believe God will lead us as we listen to Him about how to interact with those far from God in terms of when we should challenge them. But to say that you will interact the exact same was as me or the same as every other believer -- well, no.
As to the comment regarding professional vs. personal life, of course I wouldn't lie personally but avoid it professionally. That's an area the Bible IS crystal clear on. I'm consistent and have the greatest integrity in areas where the Bible is also crystal clear.
However, there are other things. My ordination papers with my denomination forbid me to drink alcohol. And i uphold that. I do it gladly and faithfully. Do i think it's a sin to do that activity, Biblically and Scripturally? I do not. The Bible never says it is. Do I think it's the wisest thing to do, to drink? I do not - and so I don't - either professionally or personally. But that area certainly could be different for many people professionally vs. personally in their beliefs -- wrong in one life arena and not wrong in the other. There are other easy examples of this as well.
I'm glad we can have these great conversations and learn from one another. I've learned some things from your posts. Thanks much.
PS -- I love you as well. :)
It depends on the relationship and what attendance would mean and communicate to them as far as a rep for God. Either way, it can be love. (personally) Celebrate-- no. Support them as a person(prior to that point and beyond) Yes. But being present at a point of "dedication" is not the same as getting together at just any casual setting. There is always something spiritual about it. We owe it to God and to our neighbor respond lovingly, either way. Our neighbor is a loving person hoping for God's approval deep inside. Jesus loves. He knows we all have the tendancy to go about relationships in ways that can cause pain. Many of us have areas where we try to keep Him off limits. When Jesus challenged the self righteous (John 8), they dropped their stones and turned away.(off limits to my goodness) When only the adulterous woman was left, he said, 'Go, and leave your life of sin'. Love.(nothing off-limits. Our Father made us with weakness he intends to help us overcome living within boundaries that cause us to learn to trust His love. Our innocent toddler might look at us and smile while reaching for something they know is off limits(and they have no idea what sin is). Do we look back at them with eyes that say keep going? Not if we really love. They might not understand at the moment...Yet, in the long run, there's no mistaking love.
Good thoughts. I love your comment about 'relationships.' I agree that is key here. I had asked everyone - maybe it was in one one of the comments above - not to get 'hung up' on the word "CELEBRATE," but maybe that was a bad choice of words from me.
Having said that, I always think we should celebrate people over events. Whether it be a graduation, a wedding, an anniversary, an accomplishment, we're always celebrating PEOPLE rather than THINGS. So that could change the feel and look of the blog if we consider that.
Thanks for your comments.
Would you or I pray constantly for the men to come to Christ and renounce their lifestlye?
Would you or I teach our children that this couple is mocking God by publicly celebrating their sin in a ceremony?
ANON: I appreciate your comments and questions. I think questions like these are fairly one-sided, begging for a certain answer where any other answer than the one expected is a wrong one. It's kind of a no-win situation, much like the question: "When did you stop beating your wife?"
In fairness, perhaps the questions in my original blog were similar.
In response, of course I would pray for the men (or women) to come to faith and ultimately renounce a sinful lifestyle. I believe it IS sinful. I would also instruct my children in teachable moments. I don't know that I would use the phrase 'mocking God' per se, but I would help them understand the waywardness and futility and dangerous end and opposition to God to this lifestyle.
But that isn't all I would do. i would also teach them love and grace for people who are obviously struggling with identity -- I would teach them to not be afraid to have conversations, even friendships of some kind, with people who are sinful. I would teach them that the way these people are going to come to faith is by the Holy Spirit opening their lives thru community with people who love Jesus, not by people standing at distances and tossing rocks and calling it holiness.
So I would do a lot of things - not just the two things you ask about in your questions.
Our canned techniques and memorized scripts may have helped past generations come to faith, but this post-Christian generation finds them both a hindrance, not a help.
People come to faith today primarily in the context of community. Belonging precedes believing. Evangelism is about helping people see how they can belong so they can ultimately come to believe.
In the 9th chapter of John, Jesus heals a blind man. Rather than focusing on the great sin of the man, He reached out to the man's physical need first. Eventually the greater spiritual need got met but it wasn't the first one Jesus touched. Notice in the passage who keeps bringing up the man's sin. Not Jesus. Not the man. Those who were followers of Christ and the religious leaders.
May that never be us.
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