We end up debating processes and methods and how to git-er-done, disciple-wise. We get in little groups, or one on one, or bring our Bibles and write in them, or journal --- I'm just not sure there is any one way. And I'm not sure any one approach works for a lifetime.
We outgrow processes and methods and even disciplers along the way.
What are we calling people to? Jesus said, 'Um ... yeah ... you follow Me and you're gonna die. You OK with that? But don't worry, because life is really eternal.'
I think we try too hard to ease people in. When people ease in, they ease out real easily. He calls us to take up a cross and follow.
And be blessed.
10 comments:
I am inclined to believe that our journey of discipleship with Jesus is a lifetime endeavor. Just imaigine if we were the same as we were in HS...or if marriages were the very same as the early days. My hope is that we are continually changing.
I have been reading a very good book. At least, I know I like it. It talks about how sometimes the church is too focused on stressing this program or that discipleship course, when the most effective course is to encourage the true relationship with Jesus. If folks focused on relating to Him as lovingly as He loves us, then things might fall right into place. It is the "true" relationship that He is looking for. AND it is what is going to fill us up.
Like I said, I like it. Not sure what your thoughts might be.
I agree church can be too focused on this program or that course and the most effective course is to encourage a true relationship with Jesus. That said, there must be processes for equipping believers. If we just said each Sunday, "Go get em. Get close to Jesus," and gave you no opportunities or steps to get there, we would be negligent in our responsibilities as a church and you would likely be the first to cry, 'The church is doing nothing other than a pat on the back to help us grow.' We do not believe growth happens in a vacuum, but in relationship with other believers.
I don't do the book justice. It is a whole entire book, that I cannot sum up in a couple of sentences. Maybe I like it most because it focuses more on the relationship and less on the knowledge and doing things just right.
You are right, I like the deeper sermons, that I learn from. I would never want to lose that part of it. I know it's just me...and maybe cause I am single with grown kids...but I want Jesus to be someone I can be natural with and talk to as if He were my best friend ever. I want the love to flow between us. That is a Savior I can love and obey with all of my heart. I sound like a broken record, but wish He were here with me.
I've been challenged and encouraged by the idea that Jesus' communication style and ministry practice was likely designed more to weed out the unbelievers than to attract them. (paraphrasing here) Francis Chan argues parables were not a low-level application designed to ease people into the Gospel, rather they were almost like a code which people with genuine willingness and faith were able to follow and understand. In your words...I think we try too hard to ease people in. When people ease in, they ease out real easily. I agree. And I think the Jesus we read about in the Bible would agree.
How would you apply this thought to KFA's 'making easy to find and experience God'? Is finding him easy, but the first step big?
As a pentecostal, 'experience' is key to my relationship with Christ - however - is an 'encounter' actually required for salvation? or should an 'experience' lead to salvation over time? We often say you need a relationship with Christ to be saved...did the disciples have a relationship with Christ when he called them to follow him? I wonder if they saw it as more of an opportunity to follow a leader rather than become a friend?
It seems the disciples first were encountered by, then were called to experience or have a relationship with Christ. I should probably read a commentary or two on at what point the disciples were 'saved'...or were they 'disciples' from the start and 'saved' at some point along the way?
'Dis is de boatm' line mahn...discipleship strategies are great, but an experience cannot be replaced. Pentecostal faith is a whole lot more than tongues and dancing; it's about walking in the Spirit and willingness to listen in everyday interactions. That's not easy, but it is simple. (externally speaking)The immature disciples were just foolish enough to follow; maybe we need to be a bit foolish too.
These are my thoughts for now.
DARREN - great thoughts, as always. You should have your own blog. :)
I'm not sure Jesus' M.O. was to 'weed out unbelievers.' He came to seek and save lost people -- all of them. It seems, if He was weeding out anyone, it was religious people.
Our mission statement is about our "church," not about the Gospel itself. We recognize that it will not be easy for everyone -- people are bound with various addictions, wounds, societal pulls - that it won't be easy for everyone. Our heart in 'making it easy' is that we at KFA would live lives without hypocrisy and with an unshakeable faith in God, even thru difficulties, that people would look at us and say, 'If they can do that, then maybe I can too.' In that way, our goal is to 'make it easy for people to find and experience God' - by the way we live.
We are finding people sit in our auditorium for several months now before making a formal commitment. My take is that at some point, they move over to 'our side' - but don't make public confessions or statements until much later - maybe until they realize or think 'i could make this my home/I could fit in here.' The journey then continues. I have come to believe that the starting point of the journey may be ambiguous.
I'm not sure Jesus' M.O. was to 'weed out unbelievers.' He came to seek and save lost people -- all of them. It seems, if He was weeding out anyone, it was religious people.
Agreed. In this case, I should have clarified that I was implying the religious people were unbelievers. They believed in their religion - not necessarily Jesus.
Of course, Jesus came to save everyone - but maybe his parables were communicating more directly to those who were willing to hear them?
Thanks for the response.
Great posts, Darren...hope you respond more often! Very interesting stuff...
I realize that this thread might have dried up, but, Darren, I am curious about your thoughts. I tend to be a very straight up person. The parables seem too fuzzy for me. I realize that they are best for Jesus, but I always pray that He will speak to me directly, with no ambiguity. I want to be clear and sure of what He is asking of me.
You seem to favor the parables and see those that understand them as more faithful and motivated to follow Him. Do I read you correctly?
Honestly, I would prefer Jesus spoke clearly and succinctly about what he wants from me....what my path should be...then I can try to figure out if I am capable to do these things. I know that "I can do all things thru Christ, who strengthens me." But my human and sometimes insecure thought is ...CAN I DO THIS? Also, am I reading Him right?
Just a few thoughts and questions.
PK and Darren, feel free to comment. I like this thread, and it brings up questions for me, too.
In truth, the Bible speaks with clarity about enough things that we already refuse to be obedient to that we hardly need to be bothered by that which is more ambiguous. We have our hands full with what is plain-spoken and clear to all. My sense is that even if Jesus were standing right in front of us in the flesh and quoted already-clear Scripture to us, we would find reasons why it wouldn't work for us, didn't pertain to us or why we just couldn't possibly do it. 'Thanks for the advice though, Jesus.' If we would just follow that which we DO know, He would make the more ambiguous (which frankly, is precious little) better known.
I don't know, PK. I am not a scholar of the Bible, but it seems somewhat contradictory to me. Sometimes, God comes down with an iron fist. Killing people and other things intended I suppose as punishment. Then others, like Job, are punished for somethiing they never did.
Then other parts of the Bible, He is so loving and blesses some and not others. There is no rhyme or reaosn to it. I know, you and others have said His ways are hugher than ours, but I just don't know hwo to make sense of it all.
I still would rather He say....do this and this is what will happen. If you don't, then this is what will happen. If I have to fear Him, I will not love Him. If I feel that He truly loves me and I can be myself with Him and develop a strong relationship with Him, then I will love Him all the more and want to please Him. It's just the way my heart works.
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